parables, prophecy, and principles

February 12, 2007

What about sin?

Filed under: bible, christianity, god, religion — heardofgod @ 8:10 am

(In response to a friend who asked how I was able to overcome smoking and ultimately sin)

Brother,

I know what you mean and it breaks my heart to see someone who has accepted the will of God but is struggling as I have. It scared me that I would forever be stuck in that place of yoyo-ing back and forth. The one thing we have is scripture. If you feel worn down read a portion of scripture. It has changed my life. I can’t accurately decribe why, all I can say is I know that it will do you good. The next time you feel down, start reading 1 Peter from the beginning. It’s not what 1 Peter will say, but what the word of God will do. No matter how silly it may sound try it, when it works glorify your father in heaven.

I know this is long but in order to answer your question I have to explain my terms. I’ve noticed that most people would rather read a phrase from the bible and it would change their entire outlook, but the way it actually works is you have to read an entire outlook in the Bible just to understand a phrase. I hope you can finish this.

I read your words and I see me. You might think I would say me before, but no, listen to your heart, for me in my place there is nothing good. It’s hard to get a clear idea about the bibles position on sin, at first. There are those who quote Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8-2:2, with a bent to say that these scriptures are proof that we don’t stop sinning after we are in Christ, we are just forgiven. But I believe that these scriptures only say that we HAVE sinned, not that we continue. Then there are those who quote 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 2:3-17 with a bent to say that we can’t sin after we are in Christ, and I find biblical basis to state otherwise as well, but first, I would encourage you to read those verses a few times and commit a lot of it to memory so that the Holy Spirit can make it grow. My words were never guaranteed to be useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, but scripture was, (2 Tim 3:16) and if you read my words they only have authority if they conform to scripture. So I encourage that you check me in all that I say, (I’ll give references) so that you can glory in the word of God which brings life; and not in my interpretation which is as good as yours, because the Spirit that is in me and the Spirit that is in you is one. If you don’t read these scriptures you’ll rob yourself of the point I’m trying to make.

When I was 26, I asked God to search me as the Psalmist did in Psalms 139:23. Looking back, I believe he caused ME to search myself instead, and because I wouldn’t search his word to find out what he would have me hear, he did it in a new way, to me. Now “How”, I ask, “can God reach out to a man, if he doesn’t listen to his heart and conscience?” (both are ways of which God convicts us 2 Cor 3:3 and Heb 10:16 and all of Romans 14)  “And, if he does not read the Bible so that God can speak to him through that method of communication?” The answer is, I believe, that God sends someone to speak to him. I didn’t realize it at first, but that is what he did for me. The way he caused me to search myself is with a question. This man of God asked if I believed that God can deliver me from the bondage of my sin. This didn’t hit me right away, and I didn’t have enough time to consider it before he simplified it for me. He then asked if I believe that God can deliver me from the bondage of smoking. I couldn’t say no because I believed that God was at least that powerful, but if I say yes then that means I have chosen to smoke when I have the ability through God to not smoke. I started thinking, “I attribute a lot of power to God, but at what point do I say, ‘God’s power is limited to this much’” whatever that amount might be.

It changed my whole way of thinking. I couldn’t limit God’s power anymore. I used to think that we can’t stop sinning, but I realized then, that God can deliver me not only from the bondage of smoking but of sin as well. The hardest thing about that is the next question, and that is, “Why haven’t I stopped sinning? I’ve been saved for years and I haven’t been delivered from the bondage of sin.”
After searching the scriptures I realized that God wants us to stop sinning, but many don’t accept this freedom because they think that the bondage they live in is the real freedom. “We know some pretty funny jokes”, or “We feel relieved from the effects of the drugs, alcohol, or nicotine”, or “We really aren’t touching so it’s not like we’re violating this person who, in reality, is dressed that way because they want to be noticed, right?”. We can find many ways to justify our actions and say that they are the real freedom, and that God would really be calling us to bondage if he wanted us to “stop sinning”, but if we try to give them up for God, we find out that we are slaves to these actions. We justified them in order to possess them and found out that we actually offered ourselves to them and they now possess us. When I accepted that -which is from the Holy Spirit- I realized that I have accepted something that Christians live in defiance of (because they usually say I don’t understand grace at all when all I’m trying to do is encourage them to maturity and perfection). I started thinking that because I stood in a minority that maybe I DIDN’T understand. I read and read and, against what I was reading, I changed my approach to a more accepted version of repentance and the message I have been given started to fall apart. I realized quickly that I have a view that is from God and is scripture and I have to preach that or I have no authority at all. After I have accepted that, I’ve now seen people’s lives changed from it, and now I’m prepared to go to the end of my life with the “Holiness” message because God has been faithful to it.

You see, if I am saved, what am I saved from? And if I’m saved from sin then why am I still living in it? Christianity is not forgiveness but repentance. So if I’m living in sin still then I haven’t repented. And there are many scriptures that show that there has to be repentance first before God will even hear your prayer, much less, forgive your sin (Psalm 66:18, Isaiah 1:15-19, and 2 Chronicles 7:14) If a man is drowning, you don’t reach in and pull out chunks of the man, you pull out the whole man in order to save him, and that is what Christ came to do. He doesn’t want to pull you out in chunks. Yet we still try to offer chunks of our self not realizing that we’re still drowning.

This is where I explain what the bible’s position on sin is. But first you have to understand another term: repentance. Repentance is first: saying that you have accepted God’s judgment and have judged that a sin (specific or general) is wrong and unlawful, and in so doing you judge yourself guilty and a criminal and then second: you turn from it and you don’t do it (Eph 5: 11-14). Here’s where it gets tricky, because as easy as that sounds, it most likely doesn’t happen that way at first. Instead, you struggle with it over a period of time and sometimes you win and some times it wins, and it gets harder and harder to take because you want to be faithful to a God who has been faithful to you even in your unfaithfulness, but instead you go to your knees after a weak of victory, on the night that you lose to Satan and you pray the Psalm 51 again and you feel broken and unholy and you repent again. But it doesn’t feel like repentance. You begin to wonder if you really repented the first time. I’ve been here and if that’s where you are, then your right where God wants you. How can this be? James 3:2 says, “We all stumble in many ways”. Stumbling is not walking. If we are walking in sin, we haven’t repented, but if you are on your knees before God and repenting when/if you sin, then God “…is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). . Likewise, Jesus said that “…things that cause people to sin are bound to come” (Luke 17:1) and in that same paragraph he says that “…if your brother sins, rebuke him, if he repents forgive him. Even if he sins against you seven times and seven times comes to you and says, “I repent,” forgive him.” We are called to be imitators of God (Ephesians 5:1) and I don’t think that Christ is giving us commands that God himself doesn’t honor. So we see that a man can sin up to seven times a day (and more I’m sure but Christ says seven I won’t be dogmatic either way, but I believe that our Lord is using seven as a symbol) and be forgiven… IF WE REPENT. Yet, don’t forget the rebuke part, which is earlier in that paragraph. God hates sin, and still rebukes you. “He disciplines those he loves” (Hebrews 12:4-7). So all that being said, where should sin be in our lives? Stop reading this and read Romans chapter 6, all of it.

The reason I say that you’re right where God wants you is because he wants us to be broken over sin and truly repentant. We have to die to sin to be holy. Jesus said “I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.” (John 12:24,25) The reason it is so hard to walk a straight line is because we’re dying to self and breaking this slavery that we gave ourselves to. You will reach a slavery to righteousness and you will praise God for what he has done.
The bible says not to OFFER ourselves to sin, but IF you do sin, we have one who speaks to the father in our defense- Jesus Christ, the righteous one. (1 John 2:1) 

I’m convinced that like me this struggle will produce in you a hatred for that sin that you are trying to free yourself from. Prayer and memorizing scripture is the best thing to do to overcome your sins, because you have the word of God constantly on your lips and the presence of the Holy Spirit in your heart. It was harder for me to sin when I was in the presence of God. God is ever present but many times we’ll force ourselves to ignore God’s presence to carry out something that is sinful. If we do that then we are offering ourselves to sin. Don’t offer yourself to sin and TRUTHFULLY repent and “…there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.” (Luke 15:7)

I started to hate myself because I couldn’t quit smoking. But I finally quit cold turkey and relied heavily on God’s strength, something that is completely by faith. It worked for me because I was willing and obedient. ( Isaiah 1:19) God is always willing. If your not willing then it’s hard to say that your not cherishing sin in your heart, (Psalm 66:18) but if you are willing then your weakness is being picked on by Satan, and what you struggle against is spiritual not physical (Ephesians 6:12, 1 Peter 5:8)

Persevere. You are on the right track because you acknowledge sin as sin. You’ve pointed out that you are weak and now comes the time when God glorifies himself through your weakness, by conquering your sin by your being willing and obedient. For this is your testimony. Read Revelation 12: 10-12. ‘Satan’ means accuser, and the blood of the lamb is a reference to Christ’s work for us on the cross, but how does our testimony come into play? Our testimony is what glorifies God because he takes a powerless wretch and makes him Holy. God’s greatest feat is to take an unholy man out of an unholy world, make him Holy and then put him back in and keep him Holy. Our testimony helps others to see our good works and glorify our father in heaven. 

If you made it through this then you have something of perseverance already .  I hope this encourages you to serve God and to know that you are being made Holy (Hebrews 10:14). God Bless you,  Sam

11 Comments »

  1. “You see, if I am saved, what am I saved from? And if I’m saved from sin then why am I still living in it? Christianity is not forgiveness but repentance. So if I’m living in sin still then I haven’t repented.”

    We are saved from the consequence of our sins. Christianity is absolutely forgiveness because without the forgiveness our repentance would be worthless. When we accept Christ, our sinful nature is not removed, but covered by the righteousness of Christ. Even as a Christian, MY righteousness is like filthy rags, but I have been imparted the righteousness of Christ. We are saved under grace and we live under grace. But, as Paul says, we should not keep on sinning. Even though there is no condemnation in Christ and we are not condemned for our sins (although we still suffer the natural consequences of them) our sins can effect the salvation and growth of those around us. As far as not sinning, I long for that perfection that we are to be striving for, but until I am perfected when I am united with my Father I fear I will continuing sinning and relying on the grace of God to continue perfecting me until the day of the LORD.

    Sorry for the apparent choppy-ness of this comment. I’m sitting in class and this is an A.D.D. impaired stream of thought. I hope it’s clear and my apologies if it is unintellegible.

    Comment by undergroundreformation — February 13, 2007 @ 12:46 am

  2. No no. That’s okay. I’ve done the same thing before. Let me see if I can comment on your comment :) don’t know if this is proper but I’m new at this anyway.

    undergroundreformation wrote:
    “We are saved from the consequence of our sins. Christianity is absolutely forgiveness because without the forgiveness our repentance would be worthless.”

    My response:
    2 Chronicles 7:14
    “if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and “TURN” from their wicked ways, “THEN” will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.” (emphasis added)

    Notice that repentance is first and forgiveness is contengent on repentance. Five of the letters to the churches in Revelation say “Repent or else…” the other two did not need to repent. Clearly forgiveness was taken away until repentance. Jesus says in Luke 5:32 “I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Notice that forgiveness is not mentioned.

    Ezekiel 18: 21
    “But if a wicked man “TURNS AWAY FROM” all the sins he has committed and “KEEPS ALL MY DECREES” and “DOES WHAT IS JUST AND RIGHT”, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. “BECAUSE OF THE RIGHTEOUS THINGS HE HAS DONE”, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they “TURN” from their ways and live?” (emphasis added)

    I’m noticing a trend here. Could be just me. Saying that, “repentance is worthless without forgiveness” is a mistake. The end is forgiveness. The means? Repentance.

    undergroundreformation wrote:
    “When we accept Christ, our sinful nature is not removed, but covered by the righteousness of Christ. Even as a Christian, MY righteousness is like filthy rags, but I have been imparted the righteousness of Christ.”

    My response:
    Romans 2:13
    “For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who “OBEY” the law who will be declared righteous.”(emphasis added)

    Romans 8:4
    “in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who “DO NOT” live according to the “SINFUL NATURE” but “ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT””. (emphasis added)

    Who are the righteous requirements of the law met in? I know what you’re saying but it does not line up exactly with scripture. You have to reconcile I John 3:4-6 to everything you say about the issue of sin. Too many people have not understood grace and mercy and think that we will not be free from sin until we get to heaven (I was one of them). Righteousness is not “imparted”, it’s credited.

    undergroundreformation wrote:
    “We are saved under grace and we live under grace. But, as Paul says, we should not keep on sinning. Even though there is no condemnation in Christ and we are not condemned for our sin (although we still suffer the natural consequences of them) our sins can effect the salvation and growth of those around us. As far as not sinning, I long for that perfection that we are to be striving for, but until I am perfected when I am united with my Father I fear I will continuing sinning and relying on the grace of God to continue perfecting me until the day of the LORD.”

    My response:
    Ezekiel 18:24
    “But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

    You have to commit to one view. You finished with salvation from sin as being reserved for heaven. But you said that Paul says not to keep on sinning. And if “our sins can effect salvation” as you say, how else can our sins effect salvation except reversing it? You’re either saved or not. Your either for Christ or against him. These are basic principles.

    Let me clarify MY point. The Israelites were in bondage in Egypt. God freed them. They were baptized into Moses by passing through the Red Sea. Later they wanted to go back to their bondage. This is the picture of the freeing from the bondage of sin. Repentance is necessary. If you want to go back God will certainly let you (Romans 1:21-32).

    The Holy Spirit has given me a message of Holiness to preach and I can’t change it. I was a pretty sad individual. I claimed Christianity and made a mockery of grace by saying that I can’t stop sinning. That was wrong and I’m supposed to share this with everyone. As I do I’m met with rejection at first but later everyone has seen that they can live free from sin and they praise God for that. You have to accept that we can be free from sin first. If we can’t live the rest of our lives without sinning then throw your Bible away because it has built you up with lies. But if we can, and I believe we can, then you can figure out why your not free from sin and God bless you and show you that freedom that I praise God for everyday. If you don’t accept that then you are simply turning back to Egypt. We died to sin: how can you live in it any longer (Romans 6:2).

    If this comes across abrasive, I’m famous for that. It’s not on purpose. I’m just to the point. I’m not trying to make you mad, just trying to make you think.

    Comment by heardofgod — February 13, 2007 @ 5:36 am

  3. Not abrasive at all my friend. I definately appreciate and respect differences of opinion when they are handled in the appropriate heart and attitude as are your responses to my comment.

    I think that I first need to clarify my view on repentance. I do believe that repentance is very necessary in reconciling our relationship with the Father. My point in saying that repentance w/o forgiveness is worthless was more to emphasize how small our role in the process is. If not for the forgiveness of God, my repentance would be simply words with no power. So I agree completely in your statement that…
    heardofgod said: “Notice that repentance is first and forgiveness is contengent on repentance”
    I was just pointing out the necessity of Christ’s forgiveness in order to make our repentance of any value.

    To your response using Romans 2:13:
    If you look at the context of the entire chapter surrounding this verse, it is apparent that Paul is not discussing those who have already accepted Christ, but talking about the Jewish teachers who boasted in their circumcision and considered themselves better than the Gentiles because of it. Paul is builiding on his case that we are all without excuse and will eventually point to the inability of man to keep the law and the need for a righteousness that comes through faith in Christ. So if we look at the context around it we find many verses that speak to the knowledge that it is not our righteousness that “keeps us saved”, but the righeousness of Christ. Here are a couple…

    Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever vthe law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

    Romans 3:27 oThen what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith papart from works of the law. 29 Or qis God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since rGod is one. He will justify the circumcised by faith and sthe uncircumcised through faith.

    Now, I will not stop at verse 30, since my whole discussion has been taking the text in its full context. Paul continues on to say that we cannot simply abolish the law and live on faith. As we know, faith without works is dead. However, it is not our works that save us, they are merely an act of obedience that comes as a response to the saving power of Christ. When we encounter Christ, we should be changed and strive to live a changed life, but messing up by no means removes us from the hand of God.

    As to Romans 8:4, we are instructed to not “live according to the “SINFUL NATURE” but “ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT” and there is no argument to that here. Please note, however, that Paul does not state that that sinful nature has been removed. Again, we are covered with the righteousness of Christ, but we are still tempted by our own evil desires. See James 1:14

    In regard to 1 John 3:3-4…again I think the context becomes necessary in understanding John’s statements here. I believe that John is simply stating that the continuing PRACTICE of sin cannot take place in the regenerate Christian heart, meaning continual, habituous (sp?)sin and not a once every now and then display of human imperfection.
    1 John 3:9: No one born of God “MAKES A PRACTICE” of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. (emphasis added)

    heardofgod said: “And if “our sins can effect salvation” as you say, how else can our sins effect salvation except reversing it?”

    When I said that our sins can effect salvation, it was more in reference to causing others to stumble. The “too many hypocrites in Church” factor. No one expects us to be perfect, and if someone without Christ sees us mess up, not much will be thought of it at first. However, the practice of sin reflects a negative image of Christ that will be undesirable to those who have not seen Him. Our sin can be a poor representation of Christ and if we cause someone to tarry coming to Him because of it, we are held accountable. I in no way believe that there is anything that I can do to remove myself from the awesome power of Christ’s atonement.

    I close with this…

    heardofgod said: “You have to accept that we can be free from sin first. If we can’t live the rest of our lives without sinning then throw your Bible away because it has built you up with lies.”

    When scripture speaks of being freed from sin, it is not speaking so much of the action of sin, but the penalty of sin. We are still unrighteous on our own and filled with sinful desires, but we are covered by the grace of God that frees us from the bondage of death that we so rightly deserve because of said desires. We are now bound to Christ, to live for Him and immitate Him to the best of our ability. We run to Him in times of temptation and He is always ready to deliver us, but when we do fall, His grace is sufficient to keep us righteousness through His blood.

    Know that in no way have you made me mad. Please respond if you have any descrepancies in my rebuttle. I hope this finds you doing well.
    Peace and God Bless,
    *Chris

    Comment by undergroundreformation — February 14, 2007 @ 3:46 pm

  4. Sam and Chris,

    I am absolutey facinated by this conversation!

    I look forward to reading any future debates as I am learning much, and very challenged by you both! This is good stuff and I will be recomending it to others. Keep on, 8)

    Sandi

    Comment by prayfirst — February 15, 2007 @ 7:20 am

  5. Chris,
    It is wonderful to see that that was accepted in love and not as self-righteous. To tell the truth, I was working and reworking in my mind how I could have said that any differently to keep from an argument taking place.

    I like your response. It did clarify a lot of what you said in the first comment. I should probably tell my story first, and then respond. I was saved when I was seven and thought that it was impossible to not sin all my life, which led to a semi anti-nomian lifestyle. I always thought that if I was supposed to be conscious of all my actions all day long then that would not be an “easy yoke” or “light burden”. I would try and then fail all the time, thinking that God was so mad. I finally gave up and just knew that changing was impossible. I figured maybe we are just forgiven and that God’s grace is that strong. But I met a man (Read the letter again it’s the part about limiting God’s power) who asked a valid question highlighting a beautiful point. When I met the people at his church (now my church) I realized that God did provide a way for us to be free from the burden of sin, not by saying, “Your forgiven” but by taking it away (the burden). The people at this church live Holy lives. I saw it and thought that any day now and they’ll slip. I thought they were just being careful. I started reading scripture again and finding that God was intending for us to “throw off the sin that so easily entangles”. I have accepted Holiness and have seen it now in me. And Christ’s burden is light.

    God has actually delivered me from the bondage of sin. I realized that God wanted to do it for me. When I realized how hard it was to “die to self” and get rid of my evil desires, I realized that “I” couldn’t. God can. And showed me he wants to through Christ’s suffering. Very rarely am I moved to tears. Even when hearing what Christ did for us on the cross, because you hear it everyday. But when I realized why Christ had to die, being that I kept going back to “Egypt”, so to speak, I hated my “self”. I wanted to die to “self”. And when my sins were crucified and I was raised a new creation, I can hardly write this without tears. I live day to day knowing that I could be where I was and sharing in sin still, thinking that I’m bound to sin. But that wasn’t the gospel message. If Christ has made you free then you are free indeed.

    Now I have to say, you make a convincing point, but I would not be obedient to my call if I didn’t share that you can [i.e. it is possible to] be without sin for the rest of your life in Christ. Christ said that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit. 1 John is replete with absence of sin implications.

    I’m not saying that we will never sin again as an absolute statement or that we lose our salvation if we sin. I’m not saying that we can’t sin. I’m only saying that sin is something we have freedom from. I’ve seen it, I’ve tasted it, I’ll preach it.

    Eph. 5: something: “but among you there must not be even a “HINT” of sexual immorality, or of “ANY KIND OF IMPURITY” or of greed, which is improper for God’s “HOLY” people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk, or course joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure; No immoral, impure, or greedy person- such a man is an idolater- has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”

    It goes on to say: have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed to the light becomes visible for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is written “Wake up oh sleeper, rise from the dead and Christ will shine on you.”

    I always saw this as meaning that I should expose my fruitless deeds of darkness with the light of Christ and then have nothing to do with them. I memorized 4:29-5:21 because it tells how God’s Holy people should conduct themselves always. “Without Holiness, no one will see God” Heb 12:14. When you read the Bible, pay close attention to that word “Holy”. I think if you would make up your mind that a sin free lifestyle is possible, it would change your life all over again. I love your heart, and appreciate your comments.

    Another thing I can’t help but pointing out; “”Makes a practice” of sinning” is a spoon fed version of the literal translation that is spoken of in the NIV both in verse 6 and 9. The most literal translation says, “goes on sinning” in both passages. If you read all of 1 John, you’ll see that that is his intention from the beginning. I think that you say almost everything that I say except that I would fully commit to the fact that we CAN be sin free, not that our brothers who haven’t seen that are going to hell, but that it is possible. Let’s bring them to the same commitment, for we are God’s fellow workers. That commitment IS salvation and worthy of forgiveness. And “works” pertained to obedience to the sacrificial law where deeds pertained to acts of righteousness. “I’ll show you my faith by what I do.”

    James also says in 3: 2 We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.

    He never says that that is impossible. Anyways, I didn’t comment phrase by phrase because I agree with much of what you said. Hope this is as plain to you as it is me. God Bless You.

    In Christ,
    Sam

    Comment by heardofgod — February 15, 2007 @ 8:07 am

  6. Well my friend I rejoice with you in your calling and I know that God will use you to the potential that He has set aside for you because of your faithfulness and zeal for said call. Let me again state how thankful I am for the Christ-like manor we can discuss our differences in a time where even the simplest of doctrinal debates can ever so easily divide the Body of Christ. While I still stand by my defense (although I will not comment on this topic any more…mainly due to my massive A.D.D.), it is refreshing to know that His people can be united in Him and not divided by simple doctrinal issues. I appreciate the dialog.
    Peace and God Bless,
    Chris

    Comment by undergroundreformation — February 16, 2007 @ 9:43 pm

  7. Thank you for your dialogue as well, brother. Continue building on a foundation already layed. Our reward for that building is our hope. Silver and Gold are still silver and gold when melted down, unlike wood hay and stubble. For the readers of this blog I’d like to say one last thing myself: I know there is freedom beyond what many are willing to commit to. Pray about it. How strong do you think God is? Can he keep his children from sinning if they ask? And if he can, will you ask?

    1 Corinthians 10: 12 “So, if you THINK you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t FALL! 13 No temptation has seized you except what is COMMON to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted BEYOND WHAT YOU CAN BEAR. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.”

    The temptation is “common” and the fall is from “common” temptation meaning the fall is everyday sin that some say God’s grace covers.The fact that we are not “tempted beyond what we can bear” shows that we are still in sin that we have freedom from.

    “Lord, Who has heard our message?”

    In Christ,
    Sam

    Comment by heardofgod — February 17, 2007 @ 11:58 pm

  8. Like Sandi, I appreciate very much this dialog. And the hearts with which this conversation is taking place.

    For what it’s worth, my understanding of sin before and after salvation is that BEFORE salvation, we have NO CHOICE in the matter of sin. We are slaves to it. Even the charitable or humanitarian or any kind actions that we do are rubbish in the eyes of God. (I struggled with this for quite a while because I knew SO MANY seemingly GOOD people who I knew were not believers…) God looks at the heart and is interested in our hearts alone. Why do we do what we do? So, if all of our kind deeds were not done to the glory of God, well…they, too, are sin.

    AFTER salvation we are no longer SLAVES to sin. For the first time, we have a choice! (Like Adam and Eve before the Fall.) We can choose to sin or not to sin. Not that we won’t struggle — as Paul comments on…doing those things we don’t want to do and not doing those things we want to do. We recognize the spiritual battle for what it is. And we need to take up our spiritual armor and fight the fight! Thankfully we are not left alone in all of this.

    I’ll be interested in reading more posts in the future…

    God bless you.

    Comment by Ukrainiac — February 18, 2007 @ 6:38 am

  9. I’m still stuck on the implied “smoking is a sin” issue. I used to smoke, I’ve quit since being married to my wife. However, to imply that the act of smoking is a sin has always been a faulty argument with me. I agree that it’s unhealthy, I agree that it can kill you. But so can caffeine, so can sugar, so can a million other things that we put in our body every day. And doing research into any kind of medical disease can bring up scary results. People who have exercised and never smoked all their lives still get cancer. And that’s just the beginning. We could get into a car wreck and die. We could get lost in the amazon. There are a thousand things that could happen to us, all without being the consequence of sin.

    So if the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, where do we draw the line? Why is smoking the line in the sand? Just a thought.

    Comment by Zach — February 21, 2007 @ 2:27 pm

  10. How is the non smoking going?

    Comment by Fang — March 15, 2007 @ 9:52 pm

  11. Two years this July.

    Comment by heardofgod — April 4, 2007 @ 11:39 pm


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